Zitat:

Originally posted by Red Admiral Cromwell 145mm and mounted medium 75mm Challenger 167mm (or 178mm) mounted 17pdr M4 Sherman 175mm mounted medium 75mm, 17pdr with a bit of a squeeze T34 146mm mounted medium 75 T34-85 170mm mounted 85mm Panzer V Panther 165mm mounted high velocity 75 Panzer IV 160mm Tiger 183mm mounted 88mm

But those are the guns with the original turret

Not that the Sherman also had the 90mm (M-36B1) and 105mm (M-51) with new turrets

The Russians and Egyptians also mounted 100mm & 122mm guns in new turrets in the T-34

The UK mounted the 20 lbs in a new turret on the Cromwell (Charioteer)

Note that the original turret may be the the limiting factor not the turret ring.

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Inter arma enim silent leges

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Vukovlad on 22.01.2009 at 16:27.

175mm (the diameter of the Sherman's turret ring) seems to have been sufficient for most period weapons: consider that the Panther (with it's 165mm turret ring) was tested with the Schmalturm turret with an 88mm/71, a gun that has a lot more muzzle energy than the 90mm on the M-36B1. The Schmalturm was also SMALLER than the standard Panther turret, so it's not, per se, the size of the turret that's the issue.

The T-34 variants mounting bigger guns than 85mm were almost certainly (thought I'd have to look them up to be completely sure) based on the T-34/85, which had a larger turret ring than the T-34/76.

Note that the Charioteer had only a 3 man (driver, commander/gunner, loader) crew with it's new big gun, and I'm not at all sure it wasn't built on Challenger, vs Cromwell, hulls. Certainly the need was perceived to increase the size of the turret ring of the Cromwell to mount the 17 pounder, and it was done (the Cromwell had a 60 in (1.52 m) turret ring).

The layout of the turret was as important as the size but my point is that the turret ring although one of the factors is not the sole limiting factor a more obscure example when it comes to putting big guns in small tanks are the Swedish PVKV II & III mounting 75 & 57mm guns on Strv m/40L (the experiments were dropped since the vastly superior Centurion became available)

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Inter arma enim silent leges

If your have a look at the diagram here you'll see that its an interference fit for the 88/71 in the Panther turret. Bigger is better.

Hrolf, change the order from 800 to 80,000 rifles. Must have been a typo!

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"The men are the heroes. The heroines are the ships. The only villain is the sea - the cruel sea - that man has made even more cruel."

OK, that makes a lot more sense..... Good, that will clear up some of the excess stock.

Sorry to bump this thread but in 1939 Argentina will order 40,000 7.92mm x 57 Solothurn Kar.35(S) automatic rifles now that funds are available.

Nothing else new to report for the Army except that updated data and OOBs can now be found in the Argentine section.

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"The men are the heroes. The heroines are the ships. The only villain is the sea - the cruel sea - that man has made even more cruel."

Uhm, the Kar.35(S) wasn't made in 7.92x57, only in 7x40.... Redesigning it for the 7.92x57 might be possible, but would take some time.

Well in was entered into the contest in 1937 so we could assume Solothurn has been doing something for the last two years to develop the rifle Argentina wants.

If its impossible then I guess I'll have to order something else. Maybe either the STPR-36 Radichkov or the Johnson semi-auto.

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"The men are the heroes. The heroines are the ships. The only villain is the sea - the cruel sea - that man has made even more cruel."

Switching from 7x40mm to 7.92x57 is, well, a pretty serious switch. Most of the occasions I recall a change of that magnitude being tried, it kinda ruined the gun. Adding another 1mm of width and 17mm of length is a pretty major change - might be more economical to start from scratch using the original rifle as a base.

I don't know the exact dimensions of the 7x40mm, so it might be easier than I make it out to be. If it were me, though... I'd buy the rifle in 7x40.

(I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it'll be difficult and has a moderate probability of ruining the rifle.)

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"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte

Ah well Argentina cancels it's order and instead orders 40,000 STPR-36 Radichkov rifles.

*Gives Inspector General of Infantry and Light Weapons a boot up the backside*

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"The men are the heroes. The heroines are the ships. The only villain is the sea - the cruel sea - that man has made even more cruel."

Bulgaria (and Switzerland) squee in joy and ring up their arsenals.

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"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte

The competition allowed submitters their choice of cartridges, so the Solothurn was submitted in 7x40. Could it be scaled up? Possibly, though the example of the Garand suggests that's not an easy thing, necessarily. If Argentina is determined to keep the 7.92x57 cartridge, the STPR-36 is a more available choice.

The 1940 TOE is designed to emphasise the expeditionary nature of the Infantería de Marina and as such the Quartermaster and various other ancillary branches have been cut back as lading ships are expected to be responsible for the majority of quartermaster functions. An extra Artillery Bandera has been added to increase firepower while the semi-official Tabor has become the main fighting unit. Support firepower has been increased by attaching Support platoons to each Tabor while retaining the normal support Company which is no longer split.

Infantería de Marina Brigada Organization (1940 TOE)

Brigada Staff Company
1 Mapping Platoon
1 Signal Company
1 Radio Company
1 Reconnaissance Company (6 LMG)

3 Tercio, each with 3 Bandera each with
1 Bandera Staff Company (3 LMG)
1 Reconnaissance Platoon (3 LMG)
2 Tabors (17 LMG, 3 HMG and 3 81mm mortars each)
Each Tabor consists of one Staff Platoon (1 LMG), two companies (8 LMG each) and one support platoon (3 HMG and 3 81mm mortars) Note: A Tabor consists of two companies as a kind of demi-battalion.
1 Heavy Support Company (6 HMG and 6 81mm mortars)

Artillería de Campaña Regiment
Artillery Regimental Staff and Staff Battery
1 Mapping Platoon
1 Signal Platoon
3 Artillería de Campaña Bandera, each with
Artillery Bandera Staff and Staff Battery (2 LMG each)
2 Batteries (four 75mm each)
1 Battery (four 80mm M-39 rocket-launchers [or 75mm guns until the launchers are delivered])
1 Observation Company
1 Ammunition Column

1 Antiaerea Artillería de Campaña Bandera
Antiaerea Artillería de Campaña Bandera Staff
1 Observation Company
1 Battery (four 75mm each)
3 Batteries (four 37mm each)

Pioneer Bandera
1 Bandera Staff Company (3 LMG)
3 Pioneer Companies (6 LMG each)
1 Bridging Column
1 Boat Column

Quartermaster Battalion
2 Supply Companies (motorised)
1 Field Bakery
1 Field Butcher Company

Medical Battalion
2 Medical Companies (motorised)
1 Ambulance Company
1 Field Hospital

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"The men are the heroes. The heroines are the ships. The only villain is the sea - the cruel sea - that man has made even more cruel."