 Thread: Training Vessels |
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Dusseldorf, German Training Cruiser laid down 1939
Dusseldorf, laid down 1939
Berlin, laid down 1939
Dedicated training cruisers with secondary minelaying capacity. In wartime, if they were to be primarily tasked with combat service instead of training duties, the training spaces in the aft superstructure would be cleared and the weight saved could be used for additional mine stowage.
Bremse, Germany Training cruiser laid down 1938
Displacement:
4,803 t light; 5,113 t standard; 5,547 t normal; 5,895 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(541.47 ft / 524.93 ft) x 54.13 ft x (13.94 / 14.58 ft)
(165.04 m / 160.00 m) x 16.50 m x (4.25 / 4.44 m)
Armament:
9 - 5.91" / 150 mm 60.0 cal guns - 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 180 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1928 Model
3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
10 - 4.13" / 105 mm 65.0 cal guns - 39.16lbs / 17.76kg shells, 400 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1929 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
1 x Twin mount on centreline aft
1 raised mount
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 63.0 cal guns - 1.71lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1928 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 83.0 cal guns - 0.28lbs / 0.13kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1929 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,327 lbs / 602 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m torpedoes - 1.548 t each, 12.386 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Mines
60 - 2,204.62 lbs / 1,000.00 kg mines - 59.052 t total
in Above water - Stern racks/rails
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 319.88 ft / 97.50 m 8.83 ft / 2.69 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1.57" / 40 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.72" / 120 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 29,406 shp / 21,937 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 782 tons
Complement:
320 - 417
Cost:
£2.480 million / $9.918 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 508 tons, 9.2 %
- Guns: 410 tons, 7.4 %
- Weapons: 99 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 1,249 tons, 22.5 %
- Belts: 463 tons, 8.3 %
- Armament: 295 tons, 5.3 %
- Armour Deck: 459 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Tower: 32 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 805 tons, 14.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,011 tons, 36.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 744 tons, 13.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 230 tons, 4.1 %
- On freeboard deck: 200 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,369 lbs / 3,796 Kg = 81.3 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.498
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.70 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.63 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 14.80 ft / 4.51 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.0 %
Waterplane Area: 19,210 Square feet or 1,785 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 399 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 0.90
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
200 tons allocated for additional space for workshops and classrooms.
30 tons for radar.
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 Thread: Germany, Q3/39 |
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Summary:
+2 new Training Cruisers (Last iteration of Hrolf's Bremse type)
+2 DD
+2 SS
+2 SL
+1 PB
+4 S-Boat
+4 R-Boat
Extension of S2 to S3
Start of new D1
I'm still going through older sim reports to pin down unit types and numbers.
Question for Argentine and Brazilean players: Why is Germany receiving less material than is going into the new export battlecruisers?
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| Thread: Germany, Q3/39 |
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German Naval Developments - Q3/39
A. Industrial Allocation
Factory Allocation:
Total Factories: 31
Warship Material: 11
Infrastructure (Committed): 5
Infrastructure (Non-committed): 15
Warship Material Produced: 11,000 t
Export Material Received: 10,307 t
Stockpile: 25,522 t
Recycled Scrap: 0 t
Export Orders: 11,091 t
Material Used on Own Construction: 26,315 tons
New Stockpile: 9,423 tons
B. Infrastructure Development
Commence Type 1 Drydock at Wilhemshaven: 1.0 IP
Extend Type 2 Slip at Kiel to Type 3: 1.0 IP, finished
C. Naval Construction
At Wilhelmshaven
1 Type 3 drydock:
1 Type 1 slip: Destroyer Z-260 laid down, receives 571 t
1 Type 0.5 slip:
1 Type 0.5 slip:
1 Type 0 drydock:
Free-floating:
DD Z-256 receives 571 tons
CL Konigsberg receives 1561 tons
At Bremerhaven
1 Type 3 slip: CL Vienna receives 1561 tons, launched
1 Type 3 drydock: Peruvian CL Quito receives 1547 tons, launched
1 Type 1 slip: Destroyer Z-261 laid down, recevies 571 t
1 Type 0.5 slip
Free-floating:
DD Z-257 receives 571 tons
At Cuxhaven
1 Type 4 slip:
1 Type 4 drydock: Brazilian BC Rio de Janerio receives 2386 tons
1 Type 2 slip: Training Cruiser Dusseldorf laid down, receives 1100 t
1 Type 2 drydock:
1 Type 1 slip:
1 Type 0.5: SL F-13 laid down, receives 329 t
Free-floating:
Battleship Ostmark receives 2626 tons
Battleship Preuzen receives 2626 tons
Brazilian BC Sao Paolo receives 2386 tons
SL F-11 receives 329 tons
DD Z-258 receives 571 tons
At Kiel
1 Type 4 slip: CL Frankfurt receives 1561 tons, launched
1 Type 4 drydock: Argentine BC Constelación receives 2386 tons
1 Type 2 slip: Being extended to Type 3
1 Type 2 drydock:
1 Type 1 slip: Submarine U-108 laid down, receives 350 t
1 Type 1 drydock:
1 Type 0.5 slip: PB VP-29 laid down, receives 192 t
1 Type 0.5 slip: SL F-13 laid down, receives 329 t
1 Type 0 drydock:
Free-floating:
Battleship Sachsen receives 2626 tons
Battleship Bayern receives 2626 tons
Argentine BC Viencente de Mayo receives 2386 tons
SL F-12 receives 329 tons
DD Z-259 receives 571 tons
DD T-19 receives 325 tons
SS U-106 receives 350 tons
SS U-107 receives 350 tons
PB VP-28 receives 83 tons, completed
At Hamburg
1 Type 2 slip: Training Cruiser Berlin laid down, receives 1100 t
1 Type 2 slip:
1 Type 0 slip: Submarine U-109 laid down, receives 350 t
1 Type 0 slip:
Free-floating:
DD Diether von Roeder receives 713 tons
DD Hans Ludemann receives 713 tons
At Vienna
1 Type 0 slip:
1 Type 0 drydock:
Free-floating:
At Memel
1 Type 1 slip:
1 Type 1 drydock:
1 Type 0 slip:
1 Type 0 slip:
Free-floating:
DD T-20 receives 325 tons
D. Transactions
4380 tons received from Argentina for Argentine BCs
4380 tons received from Brazil for Brazilian BCs
1547 tons received from Peru for Peruvian CLs
300 tons to LurssenWerke for 4 S-boats (S-53-56)
368 tons to Abeking & Rasmussen for 4 R-boats (M-41-44)
E. Other Notes
PB VP-26 completes trials
SS U-104 continues trials
CL Karlsruhe continues trials
Peruvian CL Quechua continues trials
DD Z-254 continues trials
DD Z-255 continues trials
SS U-105 continues trials
PB VP-27 continues trials
DD Friedrich Ihn continues trials
ÿDD T-17 continues trials
MH R-10 continues trials
DD T-18 continues trials
DD Erich Steinbrinck continues trials
DD Friedrich Eckoldt continues trials
PB VP-28 commences trials
F. Updated Order of Battle, 9/31/39
Note:  Y)+Z = completed (under repair/refit) + under construction
My best guess...
BB: 4(0)+4
CB: 4(0)
CV: 2(0)
CA: 4(0)
CL: 8(0)+4
DH: 15(0)+2 (previously was included in CL)
DD: 53(0)+6
TB: 18(0)+2
SS: 54(0)+4
SL: 16(0)+4
AM: 44(1)+0
PB: 18(0)+1
MTB: 56(0)
Target: 1(0)+0
CV (training): 1(0)
CL (Training): 0(0)+2
TK: 6(0)
TD: 5(0)
GB: 2(0)
RPB: 6(0)
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| Thread: Hrolf's absense |
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Incidently, it'd be helpful to know:
-What Quarter WW is actually in. Germany appears current in sim reports to 2/39.
-What foreign deals are in place, and how much work remains on specific foreign orders from 3/39 onward.
-Any other foreign relations dealings that require active German participation (as opposed to passive, like non-aggression deals)
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| Thread: Hrolf's absense |
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Thanks, but I'm not returned. Just prepared to help caretake for a short while. If Hrolf's absence proves to be prolonged, the appropriate course of action will be for the Mods to find a permanent (non-Rocky) player for Germany.
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| Thread: Holidays |
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Congratulations, Stephen - the good news is, you don't have to make any other decisions about the wedding. Your bride-to-be, and probably your mother and hers, will do all the rest of the deciding for you.
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| Thread: New to Wesworld |
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Fetched. Hey y'all.
I can't be sure what exactly has transpired here since I was a player, but rump Saudi Arabia was still under Ibn Saud's grip, and Yemen was, I think, still under the control of a hardliner imam or his son. Adventuring by one against the other might be possible if the two regimes were "religiously compatible". I would not think a peaceful merger to be likely.
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| Thread: Concept for Battle Scout |
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Don't shelve it just yet. I like it.
I think the mission profile suits the ship's design. You have a scouting component, probably big enough to mount an effective strike against a lone raider. You've then got the speed and guns to run the raider down and whack him. In most scenarios, the raider will not want to fight, and will opt to run - then your aship is chasing from astern, with her all forward battery most efficiently laid out, and her aviation facilities aft screened from return fire.
As for aerodynamics - don't design the superstructure like a battleship. Design it like a carrier. If a massive superstructure such as that on Eagle or Hermes will allow for safe landings, surely the RSAN can generate a proportional superstructure for this ship as well. I think your biggest challenge will be balancing the weight to starboard with some kind of bulging to port, and location of two main battery rangefinders.
My two cents - but then again, I'm contemplating a Navalism battleship with four turrets forward and an airship mast aft.
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| Thread: WW and Nukes |
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Dammit, people, I opened the thread to read about nukes, not bloc politics.
Personally, as a player, I always thought I'd forego nukes and just concentrate on good ol' chemical and biological agents. Not as showy as atomics, but probably a lot less expensive.
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| Thread: General Notice |
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I can honestly say I never thought I'd hear Beastie Boys in a Star Trek movie. But there it was.
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| Thread: For the record... |
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I've always wondered if Atlantis sank because it wasn't simmed with adequate miscellaneous weight for ballast tanks.
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| Thread: WesWorld 2 |
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Maybe you need to create "Kirkworld" instead.
Random thoughts:
-I agree with ShinRa - if you're going to start a new sim, you have to know what you want your focus to be, and tailor the rest accordingly.
-Tech trees can be useful, but also confining. It does lead to "anticipation" of new tech if the general player population knows in advance what becomes available and when.
-If you go with dollars as the base unit of "Stuff", it's not a problem to hike the cost of expensive stuff like destroyers and submarines. In Navalism, we hiked the cash cost by 25% and 100% respectively.
-A naval treaty really isn't needed if you have some basic, consistent economic and tech baselines in place from the start. Everybody'll be on the same page to start, and then they can go and specialize in whatever direction(s) they prefer after that.
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| Thread: CNS Vanguardia |
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I recall that waves get pretty high in the lower latitudes, so I think you need a lot more freeboard, especially aft.
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| Thread: Sorting encyclopedia / Question to the admin |
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Parador, be sure to bump all of the Ubiwan posts (that you want moved) to the top of the Chinese forum. Then I'll move them to the Archive - just the generic archive. Or, frankly, I'll be just as pleased to delete them unless they're necessary.
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| Thread: Admin |
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I think you guys need another admin. I'm not around to do this stuff very often, and while I don't mind doing stuff, it can end up taking a while. Adding a fourth admin would be a useful thing for the sim.
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